Category: News and Views
Anyone hear news on the radio? One story reminded me of a line in Dan Simmons' book CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT, historical fiction about vampirism in Romania. There's a scene during Communism where an American tries to get back in the country illegally (legal channels would have taken too long) to get a particular child with a rare blood disorder out of there. Some Roma are helping her I believe at the Hungarian border, and one says "I've helped my share of people get out of here, but never helped anyone get IN."
According to this news story, a population shift from liberal rust belt & new England states (Massachusetts) is going to cost the Bay State & some others like Michigan seats in the U S House of Representatives. Texas is the state set to gain seats. Stories I've seen out of this state show a pretty robust economy, and the little time I spent there I felt welcome.
Is it mostly these states' failure to produce jobs that is sending people south & west? Or are the majority of people who live there figuring out that liberalism just doesn't work? MA you get taxed to death...we even have a hotel and restaurant meal tax...with nothing to show for it. Many people migrated out during the Dukakis administration, especially middle class business owners and professionals. Like Communism in eastern Europe, where it is said Ceaucescu had his spirit advisors, liberalism with its taxes & penalties for average working
sorts is a life draining force.
Wow! Michigan is going to be losing seats in the United State House of Representatives? This is shocking news! I am so glad that you posted this otherwise I would have never known. Hmm, I guess this means that the population here in Michigan is really on the decline then.
But seriously, I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out why the hell people are moving out of Michigan. And considering the fact that basically the entire new state legislature is Republican, I would not say that Michigan is the most liberal state in the union either.
Crazy cat I don't know if you're anywhere near Ann Arbor, but a guy I value as a friend came from there in the '70's for a job opportunity. He & I were talking, as Massachusetts really is culture shock to more conservative leaning Florida, and he echoed your comments on Michigan not being the most liberal state in the union. "Now spongebob, really, we have our university, and our union members, but it wasn't as far out liberal as this place." Dear friend is now looking to join the masses exiting to the south & west. Now there are liberal states in the west, but the population wasn't shown on the decline in California, Oregon, or Washington, just the "rust belt" and New England region. In Jon Keller's MASSACHUSETTS: THE BLUEST STATE, there is an advocate for reducing or eliminating certain taxes here who predicts young professionals will relocate in numbers to the Seattle/Tacoma area, as it is liberal but even they aren't being penalized with the amount of taxes we are here.
I just read in today's paper that Ohio, where I live, could also lose two congressional seats. I'm not sure why people are leaving unless it has something to do with a high unemployment rate.
I don't think it means any more power for any political group. I think people just hate living where it's cold. It may completely screw up the Republican Party, actually, if liberals are the ones moving into their territories.
If people hate living where it's cold, then Minnesota, Wisconsin, and North and South Dakota should be losing people. Ohio has a great summer, fall, and spring. Some of those states hardly have any summer at all.
Human populations have always been fluid, never stagnant. This is why groups like either extreme conservatives that become protectionist, or extreme liberals who want to preserve cultures are radically wrong on so many levels. Archaeological studies have shown human migrations in such perilous times (right after the last Ice Age) it's unimaginable.
People move where they think they can find work. Florida is not all it's cracked up to be. I was there seven years and you have basically a few populations:
- natives who resent "northern invasion",
- seniors retiring there, who continually lowerdriving standards so they can continue to drive
- runaways
- impoverished groups like the south side of St. Petersburg, which looks like something out of "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings".
Perhaps instead of idolizing the opposite extreme, find a sensible alternative where most of the population lives. Seriously, states go through expansion and decline, especially in light of economic circumstances. Read Grapes of Wrath as a fictional, but historically accurate, narrative of the dust bowl era.
Right now, the rust belt is having its dust bowl, because it had virtually one economy, the auto industry, which is in real trouble as we all know.
What economy are you moving to in Florida, by the way? Tourism pays poorly, and agriculture, while significant isn't as great as California.
I don't have the option of moving to Florida right now, and my buddy is looking at Texas or South Carolina, but I remember all the groups you mentioned: the "MONEY More Obnoxious Northerners Every Year" and "We Don't Care How You Do Things Up North" bumper stickers, and the seniors lobby. Also it is the top state for unwed mothers, and the last couple times I visited I hardly recognized my home city. There were a lot of new apartment complexes, and many apartments stayed vacant, & my inlaws are looking at Texas as they have been struggling with a small business. Texas is the state that got the most new seats in the House (4), and last I read the economy there was pretty robust. I'd love to give the Dallas metro area a try if Mr Sponge had a change of heart & mind & our company had openings.
According to an article I read today, Michigan is the only state that has actually lost people in terms of numbers in the past 10 years. Why? Several reasons. The weather, the highest unemployment rate in the country, and really no hope of becoming better. It just gets worse since the automotive industry is caving in. Becky is right in that people go where the jobs are. As someone with a disability, Colorado was a nice place to be, particularly the Denver area whihc has great transportation services. I would have stayed there, but the agency I was interning for is slowly falling apart. BUt I've been hired in New York, so I'm moving there. I guess that just proves the point about people moving where the jobs are.
It is simple migration. I basically echo what leo said.
I have family in michigan and I live in texas. I've been to michigan several times over the past few years and yes, it is really true. The state is just slowly falling out. As per texas? We have so many people moving here the government is really having a hard time keeping up with everything. Many schools are flooded, and we don't have the officials needed to keep government agencies running as smoothly as they should be. The irony probably will be that with so many poor people moving here looking for work, we'll start showing alittle decline, until things happen to help the demand be met.
as far as I'm concerned, taxing works as long as the government is responsible and spends it on stuff that the country really needs that benifits the population, as long as they don't be stingy and so on.
Switzerland have high tax rates, but they also have the best standard of living in the world here, good roads, good public transport [busses that go almost everywhere], good public schools, good universities, well looked after defense force and lots lots more public services that I can't name right now. as far as I'm concerned, taxes are a necessary part of life, now they should not be extremely overly high, but it also shouldn't be something pitiful like 1% of a persons income, and the people who earn more should definitely pay more. especially those disgusting execs who earn 50000000 a year or more.
Taxes mean that the government can provide things for a nation that it needs, that it shouldn't be contracting out to businesses who will try every whitch way they can to save money, at the expense of fair working conditions, jobs for locals and quality.
It means that the children of the poor people should in theory have equality with the children of the rich people, because of provided public education.
Agreed. People may move out of an area because they don't agree with the taxes.
That's the point I'm trying to make...in some states, certain taxes, like a state or vehicle excise tax, work. For example, in Wyoming the yearly tax on owning a car is actually used to repair & maintain roads. In others, like Massachusetts, it simply is wasted on God knows what and more people fled during the Dukakis admint as working professionals were penalized to support those who simply don't want to support themselves. Even registered Democrats up here will fault Dukakis for making things easier on welfare moms who keep having kids & penalizing working stiffs for 'em.
I don't know anyone who is trying to get out of paying taxes altogether, but to see a lot of money spent and most of it wasted?! As far as poor = rich, if anything there is a motivation to stay poor, if for no other reason that someone else, aka the taxpayers, is footing the bill for their basic expenses while they somehow manage to afford cars (in a largely public transportation accessible area), tv satellites, overseas travel, etc. I support a flat tax...everyone pay a certain % of their income if it's one dollar a year or one million. I don't believe in penalizing the wealthy. What's the point? It isn't as if they found their money in a dumpster, and they tend to give more of it to private charity than more average earning or poor people.
there wouldn't be a need for charety if governments took care of the people who are most needing of it.
I am much more in favour of the government assisting people than chareties. chareties tend to be more selective, people fall between the cracks too easily, and quite frankly, I just see it as the responsibility of the government and the community to assist those who are not as fortunate.
If you're the type of person who looks hard for a job, who has applied for one and been knocked back because of so many other applicants, if you're a disabled person who can't find work suited to you, or who has been knocked back for positions due to your disability, or if you indeed can't work at all because of it, then I believe that you have every right to receive benifis. so do people who are over 65 and want to stop working and need a little extra in order to live.
part of living in a community is taking responsibility for it, and I don't care how much middle class and rich people whine about having earnt the right not to give a cent to the government, people like that just need to grow a bit of humanity and start giving a damn.
and yes, this includes wellfair mums, because like it or not, those mothers have children. and children shouldn't suffer because they were born.
Now, I might well have disagreements as to how such benifits are awarded and the organisations who are responsible for them and how they are spent. but those are disagreements I have with people, not the fact that such systems exist.
when it comes down to it, europeans have such a better idea of community spirit and taking care of the less fortunate than the americans do.
Basically it's really really fun to make up tall tales about poor people wanting to stay poor, and how bad bus transportation is, because "those people" will just rely on it. There's Florida thinking for you.
I cannot see to drive, so am grateful to pay taxes to keep public railroads, buses and other things running.
I was once jobless, so although I had to work 12+ hours a day six days a week to do it, I enrolled in a government program fraught with problems, designed for the blind, the Blind Vendors Program. I realize that's not trendy, like stories about people cheating the system.
But, whether rich, poor or otherwise, people tend to get resentful about the other guy when their own situation is rough. Making up tall tales only helps. Poor people don't sit around being poor because they like to, and rich people don't devise ways to torment poor people.
As to punishing the rich? That is such a loaded term, so I'll give it a go from a different perspective.
I have certain abilities, as a professional in the software industry, as a man, and as a father. Because I've been in software for 15 years, it is not punishing my experience, that an employer would expect more of me than they would someone who's been in only five. Even if we're paid the same, which often happens, more is expected of us old timers because we are capable of more. Since I am a man and not a tiny little boy, that level of expectation is not something I resent.
At age 40, there are things many people expect of me in society, that they don't expect of a 15-year-old. That is not punishing my age, that is simply reasonable. Since I am a father, and not a youth worker or chaperone, far more is expected of me, even in court, than them.
Americans have completely lost their sense of duty. They'd rather resent, whine, complain, boo hoo, bawl and carry on, screaming "That's SOOO not fair!" This is a characteristic we used to expect from the left. The left is now rather flaccid and limp, while the right is just a bunch of over-hormoned, underdeveloped numbskulls who talk big about duty and country. They talk big, because duty is something they completely and totally don't understand. It's no wonder so many of them want to revert, go feral, and go live in the mountains somewhere so they have no responsibilities to anybody else.
And feral is what they are, just like the homeless guy who told me he didn't want to be responsible to anybody for anything.
Perhaps they should go off as they wish, to the mountains.
I lived in a feral state, Florida, for 7 years. Nobody wanted to pay for anything. The schools were terrible, my wife's experience in the hospital was attrocious (and I was insured by my employer, no government anything there), and they persisted in lowering standards for driving and environmental laws, while talking all the time about how important standards were to them.
But, it's fun of course: no rules, smack down whoever you want, do whatever you want, reminds me of being a teenager. "Stay Awake All Night!" was one of our favorites. It just doesn't wear that well on adults, though. And just like little kids, if told to do something or to shape it up, they're likely to stick the tongue out, point at the other guy, and rail with accusations.
I've never been a flaccid or useless leftie, but man, seeing what the new trendy types on Fox News are coming up with, and how popular it is with the masses, makes me thing we're having our Summer of Hate, like they had their "summer of love" in 1969. Hate's fun, isn't it? Adrenaline rush, make up some tall tales about people, find a link and share it on Facebook, get yor blood boiling, pretend you're doing something ... and you look every bit like what many of us didn't like about the politically correct, reactive and emotional types did in the 1990s.
I really want a game preserve into which we can house both extremes, a commune at one end, a church with a shooting range at the other. Then, run streaming web cams, sell viewings online on a pay-per-click basis, and put the money where us adults know it needs to go: education, roads, defense, transport (of people and goods), infrastructure that supports a civilized society. At least some of us would like to think we want a civilized society.
Making up tall tales...ok you try living with 'em. I've personally dealt with women who refuse any kind of even part time work because it would cut into their bennies, I have full access to the news here, I've seen how they've trashed the neighborhoods they live because I live here. I suppose I just fabricated the guy who applied for Commonwealth Care (must show severance from a group health policy for at least 6 months and be at 300% of the federal poverty line to even apply) yet just flew out on Air France? And where's the logic on not being able to afford food or a doctor copay but being able to afford a car or a satellite dish that costs several hundred dollars? Now some take advantage of educational grants to uplift themselves, but so many others just stay mired in the muck through their behavior. How many wealthy examples, for example, have 8 occupants and only 1 working? Or single female headed households? That's one side of the poor you don't hear about, cerain behaviors that are much more common.
And what's wrong with charity being a PRIVATE endeavor? I've volunteered for private charity and they don't accept, since donations on a voluntary level, the nonsense government is forced to accept. Now I'm not for no one getting any assistance at all...I have one guy we talk to when he's in the park and this isn't someone with both paralysis and a speech impediment who would be easy to be train for any kind of work. My heart goes out to such people whose problems aren't of their own making, but so many others I have dealt with on a regular basis and have even been expected to bail out & I'm just fed up. This is PEOPLE I HAVE PERSONALLY KNOWN & WHO BECAME TIME AND ENERGY VAMPIRES, NOT STORIES ON TV I RARELY WATCH except to catch Dr G once in awhile. I maintain that even the most needy are best served by private charities than public.
And yeah we have some backward thinking in Florida but there are also people who come up with endeavors like Judeo Christian Health Care, ElderMed & the Red Crescent Health Clinic (for indigent of all faiths who can't afford medical care), and some of us volunteered for soup kitchens and other endeavors, and I can't say what part of Florida you got health care, but i had to be seen in an E R & got excellent care. There was on msn.com news of a doctor in a small town in Illinois whose doctor sees all patients for $5. What's wrong with endeavors like that to uplift everyone & not bleed people dry? It's win win...no third party to deal with the doctor gets paid for his services, no one goes without. And I maintain my original position...I think some of these states are losing population not only to job loss but to heavy taxes.
Well, I have no reason not to believe your personal encounters with people like that. I happen to have never seen it, except the feral homeless guy who simply said he didn't like work.
I have poor member of my family out here, some of them take government benefits while complaining about government and people taking benefits ... but they don't fly anywhere: they drive around in old beaters and live like, well, poor people often live. As to charity, I personally agree with you. Charities are a way for us working stiffs to be a part of the solution. It is true that charities serve specific interest groups. When I lost my job, we applied for temporary aid at one: I wrote a letter stating our case to them, indicated my experience and that I was looking for work, but their clientelle, like the government's clientelle, tends not to represent the educated population. Plus, I was trying to get through the situation, government-aid-free, and they could have seen that I was blind, thought I ought to have applied for federal blind assistance. That is and was clearly their right, whatever it cost me or tax payers when I went on Disability insurance for a year. That right is completely defensible: they are in fact private, and serve and deny whomever they wish. Mind, I wasn't asking for an interminable stay, just a temporary bump. But they know who their audience is, and they also know who their donors want to support. They work there. But with a non-unified system of charities, all working to support various interest groups, the interest groups are no doubt better served than a unified conglomerate be it a government or a corporation. If charities told their donors their audience was one group of people, and then on investigation, were found to be supporting another, the results would be disastrous. Bookkeeping for a 501C3 is positively complex, especially when third-party donors and grants come into play.
However, what is society to do with the remaining populations that fall outside the interest groups? This question isn't a rights question, as is the question of the charity. It's a responsibility one. I, for one, would like to see both government and private charities more engaged when it comes to anyone taking a benefit, to see that said individual is attempting to support themselves somehow. I don't know how that would work itself out, but even with the private charities, it does seem like many do not really do that. There are programs for homeless people, in some cases people who have rarely if ever worked. But no such luck for working families in a bad economy who can't find a job. Even if, for example, in order to be granted aid when we needed it, I had had to conduct an interview with them, and apply my skills for a number of hours, helping the charity or one of its affiliates, to me that would have been a completely fair arrangement. Even if they didn't need computer systems tweaked, or books balanced, I'd've gladly rolled up the sleeves and washed their dishes to earn it. Frankly, there's a ton of people like me. Probably you will find them in Texas: I know you'll find them out here.
I probably came off a bit strong in my last post, and frankly it wasn't so much directed at you as it was towards the current trendy pop-culture assumptions promulgated by the networks. It sounds like, from what you say, Massachusetts has some unique failures in its systems for sure. I am simply guarded when it comes to assumptions many people make about management, the rich or the poor.
For example, where you are, it does sound like you have a group of people, many of Arab descent, who do as you say, leech off the system. Out here, there are many Arab people who run stores, get an education and do like the rest of us.
Katrina is another example: Many Katrina survivors emigrated to Texas and even as far up and west as Oregon. They mainly just settled and worked, and, at least out here, brought some of their culture with them which meant real Cajun food, some New Orleans jazz to blend with our west coast flavor, etc. I just think there are always some, and you even know this at your workplace I bet, who just do the bare minimum of what's required.
But obviously, a society as large, complex, and reasonably sound as ours, can't possibly be made up of such people. They're probably a small percentage that sticks out like a sore thumb, otherwise nothing would ever get done.
LG, I couldn't agree more. I'd also like to point out, that the poor you have met probably doesn't even represent 5% of the overall poor people who need assistance. Yeah we've all met a few stereotypical poor people who just want to be a drain on the system, but for every one of those people their are 10 people who are poor who would give anything not to be. the sorts of people who work shitty jobs for shitty wages that can't even cover their own expenses, the mothers who work only part time or not at all due to the fact that they have kids, no husband and childcare is just so damn expenseve. And yeah, you only ever here about the people who really shouldn't be getting assistance because they screw over the system because the media know what their safely employed audience want to hear, and know that what they really want is a reason to hate the poor people who need assistance, just like they want to hate arabs and immigrants, so the very poorest picture of them is painted in the public eye too.
who cares if people keep watching eh?
There are things people should be entitled to that any government who cares about its nation should provide. good education for all young people that is equal to anything private on offer, Money enough to support themselves to be able to feed themselves and get a roof over their head, healthcare for those who have no means of gaining it, and good healthcare, not just the basics, and means of assisting those with no employment to find it.
This is why the media is no goog. They put a spin on a story and people hate this group or that group.
I'd be curious what Montana, North & South Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho, Nebraska have to offer. These are midwestern states with harsh climactic extremes, yet they don't appear to be losing population. I've traveled in WY & SD, but not the others. Is there any sort of industry that dominates? Anyone familiar with that region?
I suspect some of what passes as legitimacy here in MA would quickly get shot down as nonsense there. For example, it can be quite difficult for small businesses in particular to provide group health benefits to their employees. Some poor guy who gets a job married with three kids, for example, and he knows they don't want any more STILL must be offered infertility treatment as part of his health insurance. They don't even offer "cafeteria style" plans where you take what you want & leave the rest, everyone must be offered the same options. Medical specialties & procedures, for example, a routine eye exam you would pay cash for in other states, must be covered by medical insurance. There are something like 17 medical specialties that are required coverage here, & those in charge seem unable to do mathematics, like the more you add the more it costs, and for awhile Virginia, Arkansas & Massachusetts were the three most likely states to have uninsured residents. While I don't like seeing these shits fly overseas & stay there for months while getting MassHealth or some form of it, I understand why it is so difficult to provide health insurance.
Also, there are so many possibilities for dependents. Some companies like the local cable company, a major employer, cut costs by not offering "domestic partner" coverage, but I believe same sex spouses must be offered coverage, so there's more people to add to benefits. When I signed up for mine, there were so many "domestic partner" such options at the rate we're going a head of cabbage with a wig & lipstick is going to be a dependent. I wonder if this region has ways of cutting costs, or a particular industry that keeps people? I had a classmate from a Montana town on the Canadian border, and she left sunny Florida to return there once she finished.